Indo-Canadian Interview 46
In: icohc:21; local: Interview_46; uuid: 5476a88d-15cc-4143-b362-f542e40d5a0f;; (1985)
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Il est arrivé au Canada en 1921, à l’âge de huit ans, et il est originaire de Jullundhur, au Punjab. Il est retourné aux Indes en 1930 avec toute sa famille en raison de la dépression. Il est revenu en 1933, puis il est reparti encore une fois aux Indes en 1938 pour se marier. Il est revenu au Canada en 1940, avec son épouse. Sa famille possédait une terre de dix acres aux Indes. Son père était venu au Canada en 1906 pour des raisons économiques. Il a voyagé sur un navire de charge jusqu’à Hong Kong, puis sur un bateau de croisière jusqu’à Vancouver (3e classe). Il est allé à l’école pendant six ans au Canada, puis il a travaillé dans les scieries. La plupart des travailleurs des scieries étaient seuls et ils habitaient dans des dortoirs. Une personne d’origine indienne était propriétaire d’une scierie à Duncan ; cette scierie embauchait environ 80 Indiens, des Chinois, des Japonais et quelques Blancs. Chaque groupe ethnique possédait son dortoir. Pendant la dépression, les salaires des asiatiques étaient inférieurs à ceux des Blancs dans les scieries. En 1935, le gouvernement de la Colombie-Britannique a adopté une loi sur le salaire minimum disant que les entreprises devaient payer 75% de leurs employés au moins 0,35$ l’heure, et au moins 0,25$ l’heure aux autres employés. Dans certaines scieries où plus de 25% des employés étaient d’origine asiatique, l’employeur émettait un chèque équivalent à un salaire de 0,35$ l’heure aux travailleurs asiatiques. Il se rendait ensuite dans les dortoirs en demandant aux travailleurs d’endosser le chèque pour le redonner à la scierie. L’employeur versait ensuite, en argent comptant, l’équivalent d’un salaire de 0,25$ l’heure aux employés asiatiques. Mais après quelques temps, le gouvernement a eu vent de la situation et ces scieries, notamment l’Alberta Lumber Company, ont été accusées de fraude. Il dit qu’il y avait très peu d’autochtones qui travaillaient dans les scieries parce que le gouvernement leur donnait ce dont ils avaient besoin pour vivre. Après avoir reçu leur paie, certains de ces autochtones disparaissaient pendant quelques jours et après avoir dépensé tout leur argent, ils revenaient travailler à la scierie. Les administrateurs des scieries offraient des promotions uniquement aux employés blancs, qui étaient généralement leurs copains. Il explique que la majorité de la population à Victoria et Duncan était d’origine anglaise et elle avait tendance à considérer les Indiens comme une race inférieure. Certains établissements publics refusaient l’accès aux Indiens, ou ils exigeaient qu’ils s’installent dans un endroit particulier, à l’écart des clients caucasiens. Il raconte que les premiers syndicats étaient contre les immigrants asiatiques mais après la guerre, tous les travailleurs étaient égaux aux yeux du syndicat. Il explique que les premiers immigrants indiens croyaient demeurer temporairement au Canada mais qu’en raison d’un manque de prévoyance, ils n’ont pas réalisé que les problèmes d’inflation aux Indes les empêcheraient de revenir. Ils ont donc dû se résigner à s’installer au Canada de façon permanente en raison de la situation économique. Il parle du Dr Pandia qui a beaucoup aidé la cause des indo-canadiens. ; [This transcript was created by optical character recognition (OCR) software and the accuracy depends on the quality of scanned images and complexity of original text.] SIKHS IN CANADA Interviewer: Professor, B. S. Bolarfca Department of Sociology SIKHS IN CANADA Interviewer: Professor, Bhupinder Singh Bolaria. Date for the Interviews July 21 Time begin: 7:30 Language: Both, Punjabi and English. B. S.: How old were you when you came here? Informant: I was eight years old. B. S.: How old are you now? Informant: I am 72 now. B. S.: What is your marital status now? Informant: Married, and have four children. B. S.: What part of India did you come from? Informant: Prom Punjab, Jullundhur. B. S.: When you came here, what was your marital status at the time of your arrival? Informant: I was just a child, eight years old at that time. B. S.: When did you get married then? Informant: I got married in 1939. and I went back to India then. B. S.: When you came first time, how long did you stay before you came back? Informant: I stayed about nine years. I went back in 1930 and came in 1921. I went back in 1930 during the depression., and I stayed almost three years in India, my father mother and the whole family went back. When I came and returned in 1933 hoping that depression would be over by that time. And stayed five years and went back in 1938 again to get married, then came back in 19^0. B. S.: When you came back, did you bring your family with you? Informant: Yes, I did. B. S.: Right a way? Informant: Yes, that is right. page 2 B. S.: When you were in India for a short period of time, were you engaged in any occupation there? Informant: No, we had a bit of land and little money we took from here, and there was no need to work for any living. B. S.: You mind telling me, the land holdings, how big land holding was? Informant: Usual in Punjab about ten acres. B. S.: I know the first time you came at age eight but when you went back did you continue your education of any kind here? Informant: I went to grade eight just went to school six years. B. S.: Here? Informant: Yes. B. S.: In Duncan? Informant: In Vancouver and New West Minister. B. S.: I think the reason somewhat we know why people migrate but I just want to hear from you the reasons for migrating, and what was your reason migrating to Canada? Informant: My father originally came here in 1906 he is one of the earlier settlers. His main reason was his economic condition, he heard that the things were better in Canada. So, he came by himself, and he kept going back and forth, and back and bac in Canada, finally in 1921 he brought me with him. Three years later he brought my mother here. So, his main reason was economic and wanted a better life. B. S.: I think it is again it is very obvious, that your information about Canada was from your father, was there any other source of information that you have about Canada? Informant: Oh, yes, other friends, after I came here? B. S.: Yes. Informant: Yes other friends who were father's friends , they used to talk quite often. B. S.: What were the conditions in India, when,you remember any economic political or social conditions including the religious ones, when you came second time from India? Informant: That was in 1930? B. S.: Yes. Informant: Oh, yes, the Congress Movement was in its height, I was in India when Bhagat Singh was sentenced. And Mahatama Gandhi's Movement was at its height salt march he took at that time. page 3 B. S.: Did you have any particular difficulty in terms of travelling to Canada and in terms of---what was your passage to Canada? Informant: Originally I came in sea going ship, and it wasn't very, it was very difficult beaause of shortage of firms and we all travelled by third class or steaxage.,and that was the cheapest travelling like that of course. You had to sleep in the open out on the deck, cook your own meals. And the ships were coming from Hong Kong, we change ship from Hong Kong. They were little better, better conditions. It was not difficult I enjoyed the trip. B. S.: Did you face any segreation on the ship? Informant: No, I have to say no, because everything was normal. Mind when you travel in the third class, you stay in the third class. You wouldn't go to if somebody in the first class. B. S.: That was all the way from India or from Hong Kong? Informant: That doesn't matter any way because all the ships have their own rooms. B. S.: And that was when you travelled with your father? Informant: Yes, 1921. B. S.: What was your immigration status when you came? Informant: As a son of my father because he was allowed he could bring his family. B. S.: You did not have any immigration status, like landed immigrant or just dependent? Informant: But that time, we had no voting right of Canada, naturally no citizenship at all at that time. We were just second class citizens at that time, non of these had the right of vote in British Colombia. And other-wise the jobs were just common labour work it was ordinary work. Couldn't I work in Government's offices because only citizens were allowed to vote. B. S.: So, you came as a dependent then? Informant: Yes, that is right. B. S.: I think these are the things we consider we like to know, as much as you could tell, if I don't ask then you might add something. B. S.: What was your first job in Canada? Informant: I went to school for six years and one of my first jobs, I went to the farm Lambraria, in Vancouver, I was digging potatoes and bailing hays and so on. And after that I went to the Saw Mill that is what about it. B. S.: Which Saw Mill? Informant: Timberland Lumber Company, just cross the river from New West Minister and from here I went to India in 1930, the depression took over, and my father couldn't get a job, because of depression, but I always had went to India to get away from that depression and came back page 4 then in 1933 I came back and started working in Vancouver it was ten cents an hour. But even that was struggle find job, there was no source of system of any kind you just work or depend upon your friends to go to., who would help you out. B. S.: Which Firm did you work for in Vancouver? Informant: Vancouver, at that time Albarta Lumber Company, it was on 6th Avenue they call now Pall Street, most of the things are gone in that area now. B. S.: And your wages, ten cents an hour? Informant: Yes, that time was depression time in 1933- From now on the wages kept on arising. Two years I worked in Vancouver wages arose from ten cents to 12 and a half cents, every couple of months there was big line in the News Papers the Lumber Company raises wages ten percents. Any way, in 1935 they brought in better and wage laws and gradually the minimum wages came to 40 cents an hour, and from then on of course it was War in 1939 or B. S.: In 1939. Informant: Oh, yes, I was in India when it started. And demand of everything came so much better wages or higher wages better working. B. S.: I like to know about these your earlier jobs, what were the conditions fof living for East Indian at that time? Informant: In those days, most East Indians were singles, majority of them, vei few families , and on Vancouver Island they had tents where 40 or 50 people and had one cook who could cook for them, living in bunk house. That was the general all over Vancouver Island. In Duncan, one of our East Indians) had a Mill here known Mayo Lumber Company. Approximately, 70 or 80 East-Indians were working there, same number of Japnese and same number of Chinese and little more Canadians white people. They were living very harmoniously no problem of any kind. And in that group of Sikhs there were five or six Sikhs families, they had their own little place. And in Vancouver same case dozen live togather and rent a house and they hire someone who couldn't get a job as a cook who cook for them and then they go to work when they come home the meal is ready for them. B. S.: When you were single, you lived in these bunk houses? Informant: I have lived, yes. B. S.: About this labour force that I gathered that the East Indian bunk house, Chinese and so on, they were all separate? Informant: Yes, separate. B. S.: Was there any white people staying in bunk house too? Informant: Yes, oh, yes. The single white people were in the same position as others . B. S.: Were the East Indian bunk houses better,, same or inferior kind? page 5 B. S.: That was hard to say, after all single fellow his living habits about the same whether he is white or other. In fact, some of the Indians they were little more cleaner because this one thing they made sure where they work good washroom there, facilities, bathe themselves, first thing Indian would do when he comes from work, goes to the washroom and have a bath. B. S.: Was there any difference in wages between East Indians and the white people? Informant: Yes, there were. During the depression,period there was, the Asians not only the East Indians, they would give them the lower . wage. And when the minimum wage came in then of course it was the same for everyone. But for those„four, five years during the depression , there was little lower wage for all Asians. B. S.: How much lower was it? Do you remember it? Informant: Well, a£ one period in 1935 the government brought in the regulation, minimum wage 25 cents and 35 cents, to break it down they could pay they had to pay 75$ of their employees 35 cents an hour, but 2% of their employees they could pay 25 cents an hour. So, that was one way of getting around this discrimination because most of them have 25$ Asian!cs working for them. So, they could not say that you pay 25 cents to the Asianics and rest 75$ to the whites 35 cents. But they did bring this 25$ to their employees, they could give 25 cents. B. S.: When this law. Informant: This was brought in, in 1935. B. S.: That was British Colombia Law? Informant: Yes, that was. Unfortunately, some of the Mills such as Albarta Lumber Company had about 50$ Asians, now they had problem now, which one is Asianics who they give 25$ and which one 35- So, they found a very convenient way of doing this, they paid all the Asianics 25 cents an hour. But cover that law, to the proper percentage cheques would be madeout for 35 cents an hour. But they would come to the bunk house and get the the employees to sign at the back of the cheque and they would pay them cash which was 25 cents an hour. B. S.: Oh, I see, ok. Informant: It was really a fraud that they get away with this. Later on they would caught by the way. B. S.: The employers were doing that? Informant: Yes, some of them, this one particular Alberta Lumbar Company, I know because then when I got to know that I stood up quickly in Vancouver Island, couldn't stand it. But that only last about year or so, then minimum law for 40 cents came. B. S.: How many hours generally people used to work? Informant: In those days they were working eight hours a day six days a week. page 6 Forty-eight hours a week, then they cut down to 44 hours a week. Then again it was cut down to 40 hours a weekvhich is set in the present. B. S.: Were there any native Indian working with. Informant: Very very small number, because they had a .the way they handle it here, they didn't have to work the government give them so much to live on, because of that they did not need to work. But there were few families, I eventually had my own Saw Mill and I had few Native Indians were working for me. When they got pay you could always expect that they be off work for two three days spend all their money. B. S.: Sober up? Informant: Yes, sober up and come again. Not all mind there are always some. Some families were very comfortable and hard working, just like any other family. B. S.: Was there any difference in attitude, what was the attitude the other workers had towards East Indians and the owners towards East Indians? Informant: It was normal, but some individual,just might be you know . B. S.: Would they treat equally? Informant: As a rule, yes. Treat very politely and there was no discrimination as such. B. S.: On the work place? Informant: No. B. S.: And the relationship 8s other workers were accordingly? Were the relationship regarded? Informant: Yes. B. S.: Were Indians ever at that time promoted to any responsible position? Informant: Ho, no, that was always because even unions really came in much later, during the Second World War, that period Unions were organized, up to that time, whichever the foreman-bosses whatever they whoever they wanted to promote usually their friends. B. S.: Generally the white people? Informant: Generally white people. B. S.: And the other East Indians were the Subordinates? Informant: Just their subordinates, yes. B. S.: And the East Indians, there was no particular discrimination against them, all Asians were treated alike? Informant: All Asians were treated alike. page 7 B. S.: Which means we people were inferior than the white in higher authority? Informant: It is natural, boss is in his power and he is going to help out his friends. B. S.: You think the East Indians were treated differently because of the Colonial Status which India had at that time? Informant: In some places, were there were predominately English population, which such is Duncan and Victoria. This very prominantly with high percentage of English especially the retired Army officers and having come from India they naturally sort of look down upon East Indians. But that was just individuals, there was certain amount of discrimination, some at the barbar's shop wouldn't cater the East Indians or any Asians. So, they had to go to Japnese, they had also barbar shop, they would all go to Japnese for their hair cut. Some of the beer parlors they kept East Indians out, if you have a turban they would not let you in. But that was odd cases. B. S.: What about cinemas and theatres? Informant: In some places they had special place, in Duncan, not so much in Vancouver but in Duncan their gallaries were upstairs even local Indians and East Indians had to go upstairs where they had the special place for them. Especially with the turban. B. S.: So, with the turban they had the special treatment? Informant: Yes, that is right. Might be other places, but in Duncan that was the case. B. S.: What about the transportation? Was there any difficulty? Informant: No, there wasn't any difficulty. B. S.: Was there any segregation on ferry coming from Vancouver? Informant: No, there was no segregation on the ferry. B. S.: And they were admitted to the passanger without any problem? Informant: Yes, no problem. B. S.: You see again some of these questions I keep asking I sort of want to know for instance as I walk*on the street sometimes many times now the drogatary term which they use is Paki, was there any drogatary terms which they were used against sometimes? Informant: No, no, in fact it was the opposit, in the street generally, most of the East Indians wear turbans and they call them Mr. Singh, hello Mr. Singh. Very rare cases where some young would make remarks, but as a rule no drogatary terms were used. Paki just came to be ing recently. B. S.: Right, but the people the workers did not feel any sense of in timi-dation to go out or being concerned about their physical safety? page 8 Informant: No, they are all odd cases, where they might have fight with somebody but as which was nothing out of ordinary. B. S.: When did Unions come in? Informant: Unions, actually, came into power during the Second World War. B. S.: Second World War? Informant: Yes, that is right. B. S.: But you were actively involved in the Union? Informant: No, but at that time I was running my own business. But, I personally might leaning because of Indians fight for Independence Gandhi and Nehru my tendency was towards socialistic type of thinking but I was not active things like that. B. S.: Were Indians active the people whom you know? Informant: Most of them were patriot!cs not so much socialism or communism. ^ We only had two people whom I know they wer/.active, when I was in B. C. they were active members fcfi the congress party. But otherwise majority were patriotic they thought of Mahatama Gandhi and the Congress Movement even the Akali Movement in those days pull the Sikhs in that way. But Sikh Movement was also patriotic in that way., like presently Sikhs are now, and there were only two problems that our forefathers spend most of the time, one was to get their rights. citizenship right, and the immigration so that they could bring their friends or relatives from India, third was Indian and the families, so those were the three problems and three superiors and the most of the leaders were engaged there, and for that purpose when they all the Temples were used to congrugate and let out information what is going on in India and they would organize committees and delegations to the Immigration Department to enhance their causes. B. S.: To your knowledge of course, what was the attitude of the Unions, let us say that they—I assume that some of the Unions initially perhaps were, the leadership was white, were they any way the East Indians were excluded.? Informant: Originally, it was the Labour Movement, that raised their voice against immigrants from the Asian countries, which was merely for economic reason^ for jobs which were taken away from the Whites and the government listened to their voice and that is why the immigration from India was stopped in 1908 but that was there was no problems of any kind it was just their I remember some of the HP's and others who would take the voice of the labor class went to Ottawa pass their law of course. B. S.: So, Labor Union worked to some -extent for their own economic interest because they saw the East Indians labor as a competition', and coming from outside? Informant: Yes, that is very true. B. S.: But later on they, the interest which I see here that the labor on one side were concerened about the jobs for business people, but at the same time that my understanding is that East Indians workers were very sort of for workers? page 9 Informant: Yes, that is right, they had that volunteers no =f=matter what politicle angles might be the Millman, he wanted someone, that does go to work, and Indians were all very strong and always active, they were just suitable for the type of work that was there, hard work that is what they could do. B. S.: If Unions Members some of them have to prejudice they have to over come that because --- Informant: In those days there were no Unions as such. B. S.: Oh, I see, later on when they even started? Informant: That started during the Second World War and then everyone was treated equally, Unions are very fair now and sometimes they go out of the way to stand up for the Asianics rights. B. S.: Ok. Oh sorry. Informant: No discrimination in the Unions for Asians but in those days, there was no Unions as such but then there were labor leaders who claim to represent certain workers who come on their behalf to certain meeting although they did not have no problem, in those Lumber Saw Mill workers. B. S.: These are general questions which I had, but is there anything which you want to add, which I might have missed because I am coming from outside and I am not sensitive to? Informant: Will, is I said for population in 1908 was between three or four thousands and that was top all over Canada, most of them ire in B. C. anyway and then in 1921 they relaxed the law little bit that they could bring their wives and children. And then from 192^4- on we saw more East Indian' ladies come in and in 1925 of course the goal of our forefathers at that time that they came from India was to make enough money and go back and live comfortably in all their lifes, they were not farsighted enough to realize that inflation would not allow them to do that, because when they left India I remembered my father making a statement when he was coming from for his trip he saidison when we make 5000 rupees then we will go andjiome back to Punjab and live like Kings, that was their lives, 5000 rupees was his goal. But he did not realize that with inflation that 5000 rupees was not going to be worth that much af that time. And then again your spending habitsfaccording'. ito your income go back to India you are spending more than the others your 5000 rupees are gone and go back to Canada again and bring some more. So, it was really the Second World War that brought to thinking of our people, changed their thinking, that they will have to make Canada their home, forget.going back to India It was just impossible by that time they had families and children even to go for trip to India whereas when they were singles there was no problem they would just buy ticket and go back to India, for three six months and come back here. But now problems arose he is got four children and his wife even if he has to go for some reason he cannot take the whole family cannot afford, which children he should leave, so then they made up their mind they must settle in Canada and they started buyinfthomes up to that time they even did not buy house why I should buy a nouse, I am going to buy a property in India. B. S.: So, general pattern was for earlier worker was work for five six page 10 years and then go back home than spend that money and come back, and so there was no stable family life, and stable social life? Informant: Yes, that is right. So, after the depression they bring in their wives and children and gradually they decided they got to make up their minds either go to India or stay here. Actually the economic forced them to the decision that this is the place for them. B. S.: Obviously you are quite familiar with that we the East Indians got the voting right after 19^7. you think that all these changes were brought about India status as a free country? Informant: That helped, Indian freedom assisted and also as I have said that here East Indians they were always struggling for these things and fortunately, we had among us Dr. Pandia, his leadership, his knowledge really put us on the right track how to achieve our goals and if any one man is responsible he is the one man. B. S.: He was here? Informant: Yes, he is still here. You have his No.? B. S.: No, I have not. Informant: Oh, he is in Vancouver, you should see him. He is practicing his lawyer while he is in his eighty's now. See, you should make his appointment before he passes away now. B. S.: Yes, that is right. Informant: So, he is the one that thought right a way he took the Delegation "let me start this way" The Canadian Government had no law against any-* body becoming a voter or Federal Law was anybody but it was more than such a way it was left to the provinces, if Provinces allow their citizens vote they automatically got vote, federal vote, so, B. C was the only Province which had this Asiatic problem, so, in B.C they had a law no Asians had a right to vote provincially or locally municipality , they were not allowed. So, automatically, he mixed this law from federal voting vacancy because he was not alloyed provincially, so Dr. Pandia took the Delagation and he approached the Conventions of Municipality , Hopkins was there at that time, So, he said, let us start from the bottom, we are going to solve the problem. There, they are asked to be heard
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Indo-Canadian Interview 46
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Autor/in / Beteiligte Person: | Gurcharn S. Basran, B. Singh Bolaria. (interviewer) |
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Quelle: | icohc:21; local: Interview_46; uuid: 5476a88d-15cc-4143-b362-f542e40d5a0f;; (1985) |
Veröffentlichung: | 1985 |
Medientyp: | Audio |
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